1) Class is everything; 2) Culture>Money; 3) Fathers; 4) How do you classify the women that went to Bill Cosby for career advice? 5) Isn't that a Jim Brown quote?
#4 Cosby, who was creepy when we worked on Leonard Part 6 together, drugged whatever classification of women he then subsequently raped. This works under only one condition: "hey...come over tonight so I can drug you and have sex with your unconscious body." Then whatever classification of woman you might like to consider then says, "Cool. I'll be glad to let you drug me and have sex with my unconscious body." Does that answer your question?
interesting interview! new to the site, really excited to read more from you eugene.
i personally feel that to some extent individuals are merely a conduit for expression, and no art truly belongs to the maker. listened to joe rogan when tony hawk was on it and enjoyed it too !
Last thought, kids: Never trust anyone who doesn't like Joe Rogan. Without fail, they NEVER know what they are talking about—and always turn out to be awful people.
Joe Rogan's nuts thank you. It's always nice to be juggled by strangers. The rest of Joe, however, is crying himself to sleep on a bed of cash. Having hung out with the man I can tell you he doesn't give two shits about whatever it seems you're so worried about.
Thank you for your replies. I initially happened upon this thread from a Jim Goad article referencing Albini's rather curious remarks about Joe Rogan et al. I just find it incredibly bizarre that anyone (especially someone like Albini) would fixate on Joe Rogan (of all people) and get upset about him at all. I've noticed this fixation amongst a certain type of person, and it's just really weird.
the funny thing is there's a war going on in Joe too...between the smarter Joe and then the Joe that likes making millions. I can only hope at a certain point he yields to his desires to cater to the former instead of the latter.
Man, this is really sad to read. I'm from Chicago and know some of the same people as Albini. He always seemed like a really cool guy. Now, he just seems...well, not very bright at all.
The idea that we can remove the art from the artist blah, blah, blah... you either like it or you don’t. Rock n Roll is music of the loins. If you have ever been in a punk club or a pretentious indie music store you understand that the Steve Albinis of the world ruined Rock music. Humorless, pretentious fashionista gatekeepers. Barstools might be trash but it’s sports radio what do you expect. Rohan’s just a guy with a podcast. You talk for three hours a day and film it and you’ll say some stupid shit too. What is an anti woke comic anyway? “ I like transgressive art as much as the next guy but!” No you don’t asshole. When I think of great exploiters of people I think of Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg etc. Didn’t realize Joe Rohan was an exploiter. Anyway pretentious assholes like Steve Albini didn’t save rock they ruined it, became to private school.
Is that why you are avoiding difficult questions and belittling people? Like a politician. Imagine not being able to like art, because of the artist. As if we can't learn about the world from the darkest places.
I’m under no obligation to do anything that doesn’t amuse or interest me. I’m also quite comfortable with divergent opinions. And not prone to being easily offended. Things you might look into.
If you love the art you can't. it's like writing a song about world peace while you are rasicst. those words ring mighty hollow. How did he ruin rock music?. by making some of rocks best records?. from engineering some of rocks best records? Anti woke is like being against woke people, which rogan is. He tries to come of as liberal yet he is best friends with alex jones and probaly would have stormed the capital too. Doesnt understand why people riot when they are being killed for the colour of their skin. also burning a store or looting how does that compare to being murdered for nothing or a couple of Misdemeanors. rock was never something to save. but Steve did make it better and thats a fact. Also you're the ass and that's aslo a fact
OXBOW is pretty great. So is Shellac. And Big Black. Not to your tastes? That's OK. It's hard to believe though this sticks in your craw enough that two months later you're still here massaging Rogan's nuts. Joe doesn't give a shit what Albini thinks about him. Albini doesn't give a shit what Joe thinks about him. That leaves you here....and me mystified.
For the last time? If that's a promise I'm holding you to it. And "glad"? That's a strong word. I'd be "glad" if you were buying a bunch of OXBOW merch. I could "use" that. But "Commenters"? I'm old school. Which is to say once it's written I remember very little about what I wrote. And less about the comments.
I totally forgot Steve Albini was in a band called Rapeman. Lemme guess Rapeman was an ironic statement on blah, blah, blah-blah-blah. This is another reason why he is such a smug, pretentious, old hipster, critics darling, hypocrite asshole. He was in a band called Rapeman but anti-woke comediands should be fucked in the eye and he hopes they fail. What an asshole.
I didn't say it was rational. Or even aggressively purposefully. Like if I called you a know-nothing fuckhead. You might not hold it against me. But would you still send me Christmas cards?
Aint used to posting - sending with spelling and gramatical errors corrected.
I have huge respect for Albini but he's mistaking someone interviewing someone as having the same views as them - Rogan is no rightwing bigot - he questions these subjects in a open and intelligent manner.
While this might not be agreeable that hes giving these people this platform he's given pro-far left - a platform - pro-trans - and questioned them on the implications of this. The mainstream media have pretty much labelled anyone who questions trans issues as a bigot silencing any discussion of the effect of hormone changing drugs on children.
Albini had a band that he admitably has been regretful of - Rapeman - ffs - far more extremely bigoted than Rogan has been involved with.
But this 'wokeness' - the same media that are now aghast at racism and hatred were the same news outlets publishing articles that would perpetuate stereotypes with no basis in reality a few years back.
So now that they seem to have a moralistic viewpoint that is agreed upon this should be respected?
This is all put into focus by PR companies behind the scenes.
That Albini, a man with integrity and heart, can then be in the position of supporting/criticising what the PR companys are pushing show the power of them.
That no one is discussing what Neuralink/Starlink is and the potential impact on your lives shows that you've all been distracted.
Two questions, being genuine, no irony or contrarianism:
1. What did Costello do?
2. Is it possible to separate the art from the artist, in the way John defines it in the comments, when the artist did the horrible thing AFTER the work you love them for? Like Mark Kozelek and Ryan Adams deserve their punishments, but the stuff I enjoyed from them came WAY before they did what they did.
Other than that, a fantastic article. Was really interesting in understanding Albini's viewpoints on transgressive considering he worked with Whitehouse on some of their most unnerving material. Really enlightening, both Albini's answers, and your writing. Love your work in Oxbow, will definitely check out more of your writing. Thank you :-)
Gordon (below) has it right in regards to Costello. But this is all very weird and operating on a level well beyond the obvious. For example I can still enjoy his records I bought BEFORE the incident in question. But after? I don't feel strongly about it but...I just...lost the enthusiasm for his stuff. It's not super aggressive my lack of interest but it's complete and categorical.
And yeah...I could have asked about Whitehouse but this was always going to be specifically non-musical. Same with lingering questions I had about Peter Sotos. Which are really sort of the same thing.
But now it's my turn: what the hell did Mark Kozelek/Ryan Adams do? I'm afraid to look.
And to answer your question: Kozelek was accused of sexual assault on 3 different women, all after SKM's Benji, and way after RHP. He responded to the allegations, but not in a way that was convincing enough to say, "oh, maybe he didn't do it."
Adams was accused of mis-using his power to assist women in their music careers (seven alleged), when in actuality he either tried to pursue them romantically or sexually (one was underage sexting), and then apparently retaliated behind the scenes when his advances were rejected. All of this happened over a decade after records like Heartbreaker and Gold. Same response, wasn't convinced of his apology.
And the reason I bring up their output is because they did these things when in positions of power they did not have when they made those records/made that art, as opposed to something like a Weinstein situation.
My Aim Is True and This Year's Model....annnddd...after that? I was out. Though a few of the singles found their way onto my ipod I didn't put them there. I also haven't bothered to delete them either.
Kozelek and I, however, have friends in common but I never listened to his band. I don't know that I'd consider that Kozelek was ever in a position of power but I don't know the man, his music or his habits.
The word "assault" though is specific enough to be able to figure out that at least one of the people in the room wasn't digging on what happened. Is that enough for me to turn me off to someone's art? It's just easier to focus on art where I don't have to focus on blocking that stuff out I guess.
Which is totally fair. It is admittedly hard to block that sort of thing out. The article that came out with the allegations says "misconduct", but it definitely comes off as assault to most readers, including me:
Ugh. Crap. I wish I hadn't read that. There's one thing I learned, pretty early on, and that's that a certain type of true horror is getting a glimpse into what other guys say and do to get laid. I had a friend who was pretty erudite but when a woman we both know showed me a "seduction" letter he had written her I couldn't look him in the eyes for like a month. The upshot? A personal promise to myself to try to NEVER be that lame. Like EVER.
I mean how hard is it to say "how about you come up to my hotel room so I can entice you into various acts of sexual congress inspired by my dance of seduction? And, oh yeah, my penis?"
I just hate the attempts at trickery. Oy yoi yoi...
In Costello's case, it was stupid, but I don't believe it reflects him as a person. He's done enough good before and since to indicate that. He didn't handle it well in the press. It's been a stigma he's carried since then, despite his character suggesting it was nothing more than a drunk 22 year old punk kid's stupid attempt to provoke.
That said, I do find his music worthwhile, so I care more to understand, because I wouldn't listen to the music of an unrepentant racist.
You've never made drunken racist insults in order to antagonise unbearable people (like Steven Stills)? You ought to get out more. As always, wrong takeaway. Why the fuck was Bonnie Bramlett snitching?
"The idea that we can remove the artist from the art means that art isn't communicating anything after all, it's just decoration, an amusement." This completely ignores the effect/experience of the art on the person enjoying it.
It would likely make enough of a difference that even if you liked the computer-generated art, you would class it differently than art made by people. But I think both Steve and my response take the phrase "separate the art from the artist" too literally. Really, it is just an acknowledgement that there is no true moral nexus which connects a person's behavior or ethics to their creative output, so it's easy to compartmentalize them. If you don't want to support the person financially, that's one thing. But to dismiss their art entirely on those grounds isn't so simple for everybody, and I think that's where individual experience with the art comes into play. There are too many things going on in both the creation and the experience of a work to draw such a straight line from an artist's bad behavior to complete disposal of their work.
Agreed. I struggle with this myself but to throw out the entire canon of Miramax films because of a serial rapist seems rough. But then again serial rape seems pretty rough. And if I'm thinking about serial rape when watching your movie, unless your movie is about serial rape, I think we're both losing.
Great read. The text of the answer to question number five inevitably will be quilted on to a large white pillow.
1) Class is everything; 2) Culture>Money; 3) Fathers; 4) How do you classify the women that went to Bill Cosby for career advice? 5) Isn't that a Jim Brown quote?
#4 Cosby, who was creepy when we worked on Leonard Part 6 together, drugged whatever classification of women he then subsequently raped. This works under only one condition: "hey...come over tonight so I can drug you and have sex with your unconscious body." Then whatever classification of woman you might like to consider then says, "Cool. I'll be glad to let you drug me and have sex with my unconscious body." Does that answer your question?
He is where he belongs. But women know creepy better than us. He was probably creepy since the 1960s and people talk.
Well I guess people didn't/couldn't believe it was so. And then.....
interesting interview! new to the site, really excited to read more from you eugene.
i personally feel that to some extent individuals are merely a conduit for expression, and no art truly belongs to the maker. listened to joe rogan when tony hawk was on it and enjoyed it too !
Great interview, love you both. Keep doing what you're doing.
Best interview I've read in a minute, thank you so much
Thank you for asking him these questions! Definitely a part of his voice that you don’t get to hear often, certainly not often enough! Great work.
Thanks for reading! And yeah...I had like 5 more I could have asked him too but wanted to keep it tight.
Last thought, kids: Never trust anyone who doesn't like Joe Rogan. Without fail, they NEVER know what they are talking about—and always turn out to be awful people.
Joe Rogan's nuts thank you. It's always nice to be juggled by strangers. The rest of Joe, however, is crying himself to sleep on a bed of cash. Having hung out with the man I can tell you he doesn't give two shits about whatever it seems you're so worried about.
Thank you for your replies. I initially happened upon this thread from a Jim Goad article referencing Albini's rather curious remarks about Joe Rogan et al. I just find it incredibly bizarre that anyone (especially someone like Albini) would fixate on Joe Rogan (of all people) and get upset about him at all. I've noticed this fixation amongst a certain type of person, and it's just really weird.
the funny thing is there's a war going on in Joe too...between the smarter Joe and then the Joe that likes making millions. I can only hope at a certain point he yields to his desires to cater to the former instead of the latter.
What you mean is that you want him to do what you want him to do...”it would mean so much to me if you would only be like me.”
wrong. but I'm OK with you being wrong.
I am right and you know it. Also I enjoyed that article about that 33 inch log you passed.
Ha ha ha! Rogan is an idiot.
joe rogan sucks. used to watch his show but hes dumb as bricks and loves Alex Jones, spreading that morons propaganda as facts. damn what a dickhead
Man, this is really sad to read. I'm from Chicago and know some of the same people as Albini. He always seemed like a really cool guy. Now, he just seems...well, not very bright at all.
The idea that we can remove the art from the artist blah, blah, blah... you either like it or you don’t. Rock n Roll is music of the loins. If you have ever been in a punk club or a pretentious indie music store you understand that the Steve Albinis of the world ruined Rock music. Humorless, pretentious fashionista gatekeepers. Barstools might be trash but it’s sports radio what do you expect. Rohan’s just a guy with a podcast. You talk for three hours a day and film it and you’ll say some stupid shit too. What is an anti woke comic anyway? “ I like transgressive art as much as the next guy but!” No you don’t asshole. When I think of great exploiters of people I think of Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg etc. Didn’t realize Joe Rohan was an exploiter. Anyway pretentious assholes like Steve Albini didn’t save rock they ruined it, became to private school.
He's ruined nothing. But who's Joe Rohan?
Well you got on that one! Ha * 50! The g is next to the h! God dammit!
hahah....well I went to private school, you know....
Is that why you are avoiding difficult questions and belittling people? Like a politician. Imagine not being able to like art, because of the artist. As if we can't learn about the world from the darkest places.
I’m under no obligation to do anything that doesn’t amuse or interest me. I’m also quite comfortable with divergent opinions. And not prone to being easily offended. Things you might look into.
If you love the art you can't. it's like writing a song about world peace while you are rasicst. those words ring mighty hollow. How did he ruin rock music?. by making some of rocks best records?. from engineering some of rocks best records? Anti woke is like being against woke people, which rogan is. He tries to come of as liberal yet he is best friends with alex jones and probaly would have stormed the capital too. Doesnt understand why people riot when they are being killed for the colour of their skin. also burning a store or looting how does that compare to being murdered for nothing or a couple of Misdemeanors. rock was never something to save. but Steve did make it better and thats a fact. Also you're the ass and that's aslo a fact
If you really think Steve Albini has made great music....I don’t know what to tell you.
OXBOW is pretty great. So is Shellac. And Big Black. Not to your tastes? That's OK. It's hard to believe though this sticks in your craw enough that two months later you're still here massaging Rogan's nuts. Joe doesn't give a shit what Albini thinks about him. Albini doesn't give a shit what Joe thinks about him. That leaves you here....and me mystified.
For the last time PRETENTIOUS ASSHOLES like him ruined rock n roll. Are you not glad I am
here seems to me like you could use all the commenters you can get
For the last time? If that's a promise I'm holding you to it. And "glad"? That's a strong word. I'd be "glad" if you were buying a bunch of OXBOW merch. I could "use" that. But "Commenters"? I'm old school. Which is to say once it's written I remember very little about what I wrote. And less about the comments.
Sure...
I totally forgot Steve Albini was in a band called Rapeman. Lemme guess Rapeman was an ironic statement on blah, blah, blah-blah-blah. This is another reason why he is such a smug, pretentious, old hipster, critics darling, hypocrite asshole. He was in a band called Rapeman but anti-woke comediands should be fucked in the eye and he hopes they fail. What an asshole.
You showed him!
Am I wrong? Please be honest.
You are wrong. But that's just MY opinion.
I am asking you to back up your opinion dude.
are you a PAYING subscriber? hahah....you see where this is going?
Another woke pussy. Cobain must have brainwashed him with that Evergreen State faggotry before he offed himself.
You are talking about something Elvis Costello said in a bar in 1979? Seriously?
I didn't say it was rational. Or even aggressively purposefully. Like if I called you a know-nothing fuckhead. You might not hold it against me. But would you still send me Christmas cards?
Fair enough haha
Aint used to posting - sending with spelling and gramatical errors corrected.
I have huge respect for Albini but he's mistaking someone interviewing someone as having the same views as them - Rogan is no rightwing bigot - he questions these subjects in a open and intelligent manner.
While this might not be agreeable that hes giving these people this platform he's given pro-far left - a platform - pro-trans - and questioned them on the implications of this. The mainstream media have pretty much labelled anyone who questions trans issues as a bigot silencing any discussion of the effect of hormone changing drugs on children.
Albini had a band that he admitably has been regretful of - Rapeman - ffs - far more extremely bigoted than Rogan has been involved with.
But this 'wokeness' - the same media that are now aghast at racism and hatred were the same news outlets publishing articles that would perpetuate stereotypes with no basis in reality a few years back.
So now that they seem to have a moralistic viewpoint that is agreed upon this should be respected?
This is all put into focus by PR companies behind the scenes.
That Albini, a man with integrity and heart, can then be in the position of supporting/criticising what the PR companys are pushing show the power of them.
That no one is discussing what Neuralink/Starlink is and the potential impact on your lives shows that you've all been distracted.
Two questions, being genuine, no irony or contrarianism:
1. What did Costello do?
2. Is it possible to separate the art from the artist, in the way John defines it in the comments, when the artist did the horrible thing AFTER the work you love them for? Like Mark Kozelek and Ryan Adams deserve their punishments, but the stuff I enjoyed from them came WAY before they did what they did.
Other than that, a fantastic article. Was really interesting in understanding Albini's viewpoints on transgressive considering he worked with Whitehouse on some of their most unnerving material. Really enlightening, both Albini's answers, and your writing. Love your work in Oxbow, will definitely check out more of your writing. Thank you :-)
Gordon (below) has it right in regards to Costello. But this is all very weird and operating on a level well beyond the obvious. For example I can still enjoy his records I bought BEFORE the incident in question. But after? I don't feel strongly about it but...I just...lost the enthusiasm for his stuff. It's not super aggressive my lack of interest but it's complete and categorical.
And yeah...I could have asked about Whitehouse but this was always going to be specifically non-musical. Same with lingering questions I had about Peter Sotos. Which are really sort of the same thing.
But now it's my turn: what the hell did Mark Kozelek/Ryan Adams do? I'm afraid to look.
"Lingering questions about Peter Sotos..." Now there's a guy I'd like to see you talk to. I'm getting all giddy just imagining the comments!
yeah...some interviews can't be done on the phone or via email. I suspect this one would require us to be in the same place at the same time.
Do you mind me asking which records by Costello?
And to answer your question: Kozelek was accused of sexual assault on 3 different women, all after SKM's Benji, and way after RHP. He responded to the allegations, but not in a way that was convincing enough to say, "oh, maybe he didn't do it."
Adams was accused of mis-using his power to assist women in their music careers (seven alleged), when in actuality he either tried to pursue them romantically or sexually (one was underage sexting), and then apparently retaliated behind the scenes when his advances were rejected. All of this happened over a decade after records like Heartbreaker and Gold. Same response, wasn't convinced of his apology.
And the reason I bring up their output is because they did these things when in positions of power they did not have when they made those records/made that art, as opposed to something like a Weinstein situation.
My Aim Is True and This Year's Model....annnddd...after that? I was out. Though a few of the singles found their way onto my ipod I didn't put them there. I also haven't bothered to delete them either.
Kozelek and I, however, have friends in common but I never listened to his band. I don't know that I'd consider that Kozelek was ever in a position of power but I don't know the man, his music or his habits.
The word "assault" though is specific enough to be able to figure out that at least one of the people in the room wasn't digging on what happened. Is that enough for me to turn me off to someone's art? It's just easier to focus on art where I don't have to focus on blocking that stuff out I guess.
Which is totally fair. It is admittedly hard to block that sort of thing out. The article that came out with the allegations says "misconduct", but it definitely comes off as assault to most readers, including me:
https://pitchfork.com/news/mark-kozelek-of-sun-kil-moon-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-three-women/
Ugh. Crap. I wish I hadn't read that. There's one thing I learned, pretty early on, and that's that a certain type of true horror is getting a glimpse into what other guys say and do to get laid. I had a friend who was pretty erudite but when a woman we both know showed me a "seduction" letter he had written her I couldn't look him in the eyes for like a month. The upshot? A personal promise to myself to try to NEVER be that lame. Like EVER.
I mean how hard is it to say "how about you come up to my hotel room so I can entice you into various acts of sexual congress inspired by my dance of seduction? And, oh yeah, my penis?"
I just hate the attempts at trickery. Oy yoi yoi...
I assume its a reference to Costello's drunken racist insults to provoke a fight in 1979. https://ultimateclassicrock.com/elvis-costello-racist-remarks/
In Costello's case, it was stupid, but I don't believe it reflects him as a person. He's done enough good before and since to indicate that. He didn't handle it well in the press. It's been a stigma he's carried since then, despite his character suggesting it was nothing more than a drunk 22 year old punk kid's stupid attempt to provoke.
That said, I do find his music worthwhile, so I care more to understand, because I wouldn't listen to the music of an unrepentant racist.
Great article.
You know in the grand scheme of things it may not matter at all. But like I say above...I just lost the taste for him....
You've never made drunken racist insults in order to antagonise unbearable people (like Steven Stills)? You ought to get out more. As always, wrong takeaway. Why the fuck was Bonnie Bramlett snitching?
Never. Not my go-to move. Punched plenty of faces. But racist insults? Not even a single time. But maybe that's just me.
I can just easily imagine what might prompt someone to go to such measures when forced to sit with an individual like Steven Stills.
True.
"The idea that we can remove the artist from the art means that art isn't communicating anything after all, it's just decoration, an amusement." This completely ignores the effect/experience of the art on the person enjoying it.
They now have computer programs that can both paint and write novels. Does this make a difference?
It would likely make enough of a difference that even if you liked the computer-generated art, you would class it differently than art made by people. But I think both Steve and my response take the phrase "separate the art from the artist" too literally. Really, it is just an acknowledgement that there is no true moral nexus which connects a person's behavior or ethics to their creative output, so it's easy to compartmentalize them. If you don't want to support the person financially, that's one thing. But to dismiss their art entirely on those grounds isn't so simple for everybody, and I think that's where individual experience with the art comes into play. There are too many things going on in both the creation and the experience of a work to draw such a straight line from an artist's bad behavior to complete disposal of their work.
Agreed. I struggle with this myself but to throw out the entire canon of Miramax films because of a serial rapist seems rough. But then again serial rape seems pretty rough. And if I'm thinking about serial rape when watching your movie, unless your movie is about serial rape, I think we're both losing.